602 – Marketing without the guilt: Tom interviews Yuval Ackerman

Episode 602 – Yuval Ackerman
[00:00:09] Welcome to Screw the Commute. The entrepreneurial podcast dedicated to getting you out of the car and into the money, with your host, lifelong entrepreneur and multimillionaire, Tom Antion.

[00:00:24] Hey, everybody, is Tom here with Episode 602 of Screw the Commute podcast? I'm here with Yuval Ackerman, and what attracted me to her was the word ethical. Now, as many of you know, I'm somewhat of a consumer advocate and have a TV show in development in Hollywood called Scam Brigade. You can see the trailer ad scam brigade where I go after scammers and expose their dirty tricks. And and here's the thing. You can you've all knows this. You can make a fortune ethically and sleep well at night with no lawsuits against you and no one badmouthing you online by by just not being so pushy and obnoxious like a lot of people are. And that's what you've all we'll be talking about today. Now, I did a little research on her, and the literal meaning of her name is a small stream. And many of you know that copyrighting I have coined as the number one skill in my entire 45 years in business has brought in 30 $40 Million just to me, not counting what I've taught to my students and the little bit of effort. It's kind of the small stream effect. You know, a stream will wear out a rock, you know, and make some big changes. Well, learning what you've all has to teach, you can take a little bit of effort, but can make massive differences in your business.

[00:01:49] So really pay attention to this episode. All right. I hope you didn't miss episode 601. That was EST. Rapaport ceased teaches you how to rewire your brain for increased productivity. There's lots of little things that you can do and be much more productive. And for a relatively young person, she is wise beyond her years. I got to tell you, that was episode 601. And to get to any back episodes, you go to screwthecommute.com, slash and then the episode number 601. And I'm sure you're going to want to listen to this one again 602 and pass it on to your colleagues. All right. Make sure you grab a copy of our automation book. This is my sleazy way of getting you on my emails, because I'll tell you tell you what that means, that I've been getting on my email list. But I'll tell you what this is, though, like three page checklist. This is a 60, 70 page book of how I've made millions and millions of dollars and saved millions of keystrokes. That's the whole thing. Folks, I want you to spend spending time with your customers and prospects and developing products and services, not fighting with your computer. So that's what this book is all about. And we're happy to give it to you at screwthecommute.com/automatefree and then pick up a copy of our podcast app. Apple kind of messed up and dropped it out of the store. But it's back. screwthecommute.com/app. You can put us on your cell phone and tablet and take us with you on the road. Now we're going great with our program to help persons with disabilities get them scholarships, the Internet and digital marketing. They amaze me. Two of the people in the program are blind and they're doing better videos than I do. So. So it's so inspiring and I'm just so thrilled to be involved in helping them change their lives for the better. So check it out at IMTCVA.org/disabilities and of course that's going to be in the show notes. I know you don't want to remember that and click on the Go Fund Me account and check out their videos, their updates, and it's just a beautiful thing to be involved in. So check that out.

[00:04:01] All right. Let's get to the main event. Yuval Ackerman is the person to work with when you want to ditch the sleazy sales tactics in your email marketing, but you don't know how to do it yourself. And as an ethical email strategist and copywriter, she helps entrepreneurs tell their stories and market themselves without feeling guilty. And they even have fun on the way. So Yuval, are you ready to screw? The commute?

[00:04:28] Hey, Tom. Yeah, of course. Let's go.

[00:04:30] Let's do it. Screw this sleazy commute. I got to. We'll tell them about that later. But but what what is interesting, I was looking at your background at 17 years old. You were working at a radio station. You were a sound engineer. How did you become that and how did that turn into a copywriting career?

[00:04:50] So I grew up in Israel. I was born and raised there. And when you finish high school, you're basically you just have to enroll to the army. And I don't know if I was fortunate enough or not fortunate enough to be actually recruited to the Army's national radio station. Oh, yeah. So I was a journalist there for three years. That was mandatory and I learned a lot of things when I was there. I think the most important things that I learned there is what I don't want to do, which is become a journalist after this after that experience. And so I ditched journalism and I ditched writing, which I was. Doing up until that point my my entire life, which was heartbreaking. But I needed a big break. And I basically went into a writing hiatus for like seven years or so and just, you know, just did a whole bunch of different things that I loved, you know, in other fields, like gastronomy. So I dealt with food in cafes and restaurants and bars and all that, and I also dealt with sales. And somewhere in between I decided that I want to pursue another dream of mine, which was to become a music producer. And then I just moved to Berlin, Germany, where I'm based right now. And I did my bachelor here and yeah. And then after I finished my audio engineering and music production degree, I decided, well, I actually don't want to do music. I want to get back to writing for for people for a living, whether it's writing music or writing anything else. And that was sort of the beginning of my journey back into writing, into copyrighting, actually.

[00:06:47] Well, I guess at the radio station for for the Israeli government, you didn't learn Krav Maga and shoot Uzis, huh?

[00:06:56] Well, they tried. Here's the thing. People who are recruited to this unit are not what you would have in mind. They're not like the stereotypical soldiers that you have in mind. Even our commanders at the basic training, where they tried to give us this one singular lesson of Krav Maga, they kind of gave up on us. So just just to just goes to show you how incapable we were physically. But, you know, we were recruited for our brains, not for our bodies.

[00:07:33] Well, there you go. That's that's that's a good thing. But but, you know, I was thinking about having you instead of interviewing you, just having you sing your way through this, you got some heck of a good voice. I saw your Instagram or those all original songs on Instagram.

[00:07:49] My, my personal one. I think most of them are.

[00:07:53] Yeah, yeah. Boy, what a voice I thought, yeah, let's just have her sing the whole thing. And I could just sit back and listen.

[00:08:00] If only I could.

[00:08:01] Now, now, I heard you talk about a thing called bro marketing. What is that? And how do you and I think you said you want to avoid it.

[00:08:12] Oh, yeah, absolutely. Please do. Everyone who's sitting out there, bro marketing is like an umbrella term for everyone who's using all kinds of sales tactics, who are which are kind of making you uncomfortable in your seat when you're reading the copy. So a lot of those marketers are using FOMO, they're using guilt, they're using shame. Fomo is FOMO fear of missing out. So by now, before it goes away for forever and ever, we don't know where. When is it that we're going to suggest this again after tomorrow? Until tomorrow? Exactly.

[00:08:55] Okay. So that's bro marketing and you want to avoid that kind of stuff and, and tell them, you know, I was teasing about the word sleazy because I want to really dive into this a little bit because one of the standards of the entire Internet marketing industry that I have been in since the beginning, 28 years, has been ethical bribes, they call them, and freebies and so forth. And you said that's sleazy. Now, how can you buck the entire system like that?

[00:09:26] Well, I'm obviously over generalizing, which is a very human thing to do. And, you know, I'm only human. What I have a hard time with, with this particular method, I would say, is the lack of transparency with this. So a lot of times, I mean, we're not naive. Right. But a lot of times still, when you're getting some kind of a freebie, you're automatically registered to the general list or maybe a welcome sequence right from the very beginning. And, you know, there's something wrong with that, you know, as a concept. But at least be transparent about this and say, you know, you're signing it by actually agreeing to receive this freebie. You're going to be sign up to my list. And I find that still a lot of business owners or brands are not doing this. And that's what I have a really major issue with.

[00:10:20] Well, perfect place to hide that that no one will ever see on earth is in your terms of service, right? That's right.

[00:10:27] Yeah. Of course, nobody as you said again, no one ever reads that.

[00:10:32] So technically that's transparent. But no, you know, nobody's ever going to read it. But I would contend that every piece of software you've ever bought in your whole life or gotten for free, you know, has 50 pages of two point font that they know nobody is ever going to read. So the whole world is sleazy.

[00:10:54] Well. Well, we're getting into a much bigger discussion here. I don't think we have the time to get into this.

[00:11:03] But but I mean, you know, that's that's part of the deal. I mean, nobody has ever read anything on Earth that's written for software or were some other examples of that. You know, you have to agree to our terms of service. Click this thing and you know, it's like 48 pages long.

[00:11:23] Yeah. No, of.

[00:11:23] Course, I would contend that no judge in a in a trial about this has ever read one of those when they downloaded pieces.

[00:11:32] So that's a big, you know, big thing to say.

[00:11:36] Now, here's the thing. Your father taught you that a table with three legs would always be more stable than one with four legs. And you came up with the three main pillars of ethical marketing. Can you explain those to us?

[00:11:52] Well, Tom, you've definitely done your research properly, and I thank you for that. Yes. So I talked to a lot of business owners. And what is it that they found to be annoying in the digital marketing realm and specifically in the email room, and got to the conclusion that there are three things that we need to talk about. The first and the first one that we need to talk about is transparency. We mentioned this a bit before. The second one is consent, and the third one is storytelling. And I think that when you combine those three pillars and you use it in your email marketing, you're hitting a really good, sweet ethical spot. And I recommend everyone to use those three pillars in their email marketing.

[00:12:38] Now, what would how would you differentiate between or give us examples of one and two? Like if you're transparent and they sign up, isn't that just automatically they've consented?

[00:12:50] In a way, yes. But at the same time, I would encourage everyone not to exploit this consent further on. So I can give you an example of how I do it myself. When someone signs up to my email list. The transparent part is that the thank you page says something along the lines of Here's what you're going to receive from me from now on. So there's going to be a welcome sequence. And then there are weekly emails with insights and funny stories. But the consent part is that during my welcome sequence, which is like six or seven emails long, depends on the season probably. I'm also giving everyone the option to opt out of my email, not my email list generally, but I opt out of my welcome sequence alone.

[00:13:42] Hold it right there. Isn't that demanded by the Canned Spam Act already?

[00:13:49] Good question.

[00:13:50] I don't. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely it is. You have to have a a prominent unsubscribe link or unsubscribe.

[00:14:00] Yes, unsubscribe. Yes, for sure. I agree fully 100%. But how many email lists started sending you in a welcome sequence that could be may be a bit tedious or long and gave you the option to opt out only from the welcome sequence and not from the general list, because maybe you would like to receive the weekly emails, but you don't have the time and the energy to read the whole welcome sequence.

[00:14:27] Yeah, I haven't heard anybody differentiate those actually.

[00:14:32] Yeah. And it's it's a really good way, I think, to develop a much deeper trust and bond between you, as, you know, the person who manages the list and your new subscriber. And you know, I tell you what, Tom, ever since I implemented this option, no one has dropped out of my welcome sequence. So so far, 100% rate of success. All right.

[00:15:00] So tell us.

[00:15:01] How you send by.

[00:15:02] A word, this.

[00:15:04] It's as simple as having a really quick disclaimer or some kind of a sentence at the beginning of every email that I have from, I think email three onwards saying you're receiving this email because you're a part of my list. Now, if you don't want to receive the next few emails of my welcome sequence, no worries. You can opt out here and then there's a link to an opt out page and that's that.

[00:15:34] All right. Now, are you using double opt in or single opt in?

[00:15:38] I'm using a single one. I have thought of doing the double one. There are pros and cons to doing both. For now, I'm sticking to just a single opt in.

[00:15:53] Yeah. Let's hear your your thoughts on the pros and cons.

[00:15:57] Well, I think that when you are using a11, you're absolutely getting this consent from your subscriber which which I like, which I'm all for. At the same time, I feel like a lot of people are not. Really considering this or not, they don't really care about those emails, so they just kind of delete them right away as well as maybe your email account or your email address, to be more precise, is sending emails directly to your new subscribers spam folder, God forbid, or your promotions tab. So there is no way that your new subscriber will actually see your double opt in. And so you're kind of losing your new subscriber right away. Yeah. With a single one.

[00:16:48] Go ahead.

[00:16:49] Go ahead.

[00:16:49] Well, that's you know, that's the same philosophy I have is the only time I turn on double opt in. Remember, I've been doing this 28 years and hundreds and hundreds of millions of emails. The only time I turn on double opt in is occasionally. Probably some eight year old is running a bot against my list and just spamming it to death. And so I turn on double opt in, which kills all those emails from getting on the list because you don't want. Crappy emails on the list because then your delivery rate goes down and it looks like you're spamming people to the servers. So. So I only turn it on till the bot gets sick of me and then I turn it back off single up. So.

[00:17:33] Well, that's a good message. Yeah.

[00:17:34] There you go. Now, number three seems to be quite a bit different than one and two. Tell us about number three storytelling.

[00:17:44] Yeah, storytelling is something that is pretty much as old as time. I you know, I'm not going to say anything new by saying that we're all inherently storytellers. But I do find that people like to buy from people. And the greatest way to actually humanize yourself is to tell a story. Because at the end of the day, you don't want to buy from companies or entities with exceptions, of course you want to buy from people that you know and you trust enough to invest money in their offer, whichever it might be. So with storytelling, you're I find that driving kind of the message, driving it home comes. A little bit more naturally and way less sleazy than just to kind of punch in the entire. Oh, buy for me. Now this is only going to last this and that time and sound like a car salesman or something. No disrespect to car salesman's, but the salesman. But you know. You know what I mean by that?

[00:18:56] Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, but. I think that urgency and scarcity, that's real. Is a powerful motivator to people to buy. But my problem was when people cross the line and make it up and be, you know, make up fake urgency and fake scarcity. Because sometimes you just have to push people to move. But for for instance, I had a promotion when I was transitioning from audio cassette tapes, which you probably not never even saw on.

[00:19:34] Oh, come on. Of course I remember. And I've used them myself, of course.

[00:19:38] To CDs. And I had a super big liquidation sale. And I said, when they're gone, they're gone. And you know, that was the way it was. And the same thing when I transitioned from VHS tapes to DVDs, you know, I wasn't going to, you know, when they're gone, they're gone. So that was reasonable and ethical truth. But when you and I did do a funny one one time, I don't know if you ever heard of it, but I mean, this was totally tongue in cheek. Everybody knew it was a joke. But I said and speaking of car salesmen, so I mocked up a promotion as if it was a car sale. So I had I had a web page with porta potties and dancing hot dogs and flags and everything. And I said, Hey, we're the old eBooks are clogging up the computer. The electrons from the old e-books are clogging up the computer. The boss says, Move them out or we're going to get fired. So if you push your old e-book and we'll give you a credit for your old eBooks, push your e-book in, tow it in. And and we sold $9,600 in half price. All right. So okay. So but clearly it was a joke and.

[00:20:54] Exactly.

[00:20:55] Yeah, it was not anything to to fake people out like, oh, well, we're out of e-book. Sorry.

[00:21:00] Yeah, come on. Is anyone buying this anyway?

[00:21:04] So now here's one thing I wondered about you. I saw that you this is a quote from somewhere you're, I don't know, LinkedIn or somewhere. I'm Yuval, your friendly neighborhood email copywriter. Well, copy is used in like hundreds of different places. So why did you pick email? Only to coin yourself.

[00:21:30] I really want to thank you for this question, Tom, because. I think. Yeah, that allows me to unveil a bit more about myself here, which honestly doesn't come off as naturally to me usually, but I'm happy to share it here. I started my business as a content writer, even though from the get go my company was called Yuval Aker and copyrighting. Why did I choose this name? I don't know. I didn't even know what copyrighting was. I started with writing blog posts for all kinds of companies, big and small. And, you know, time went by and I wrote more things for them. And all of a sudden they started asking me to write all kinds of other materials for them, like video scripts or Facebook ads and Google ads and emails as well. And I thought, wait a minute, something here is is off. You know, this is not what we agreed on to begin with. And that's when I kind of dove into the entire copywriting world. And I realized that this is a very good opportunity for me from to become a specialist rather than a generalist. And I kind of had to ask myself and to kind of think of of my days as a journalist and ask myself, what is it that I actually enjoyed doing? What is it back then as a journalist? What is it that I enjoy doing now? What what do I want to use my writing for? And the simple answer to this is to tell other people's stories and to help people.

[00:23:12] And so while doing all those different experimentations with all kinds of different copyrighting. Materials. I discovered that to me, the most efficient way to tell a story is via your emails. Because when you own a list, when you manage a list, you don't have to consider any kind of social media algorithms, right? You control the narrative. You control the design. Whether you have one or you don't have one and you don't care about it, it doesn't actually matter, in my opinion. And you can tell a story in in length and you can tell a very short story. And either way, that would be better than to me personally. My preference that would be better than just writing yet another Facebook ad, which I think we get way too much of either way.

[00:24:14] Oc Yeah, so yeah, and I have been to this day, I echo exactly what you're saying is that we're in control of our email list. You know, you can. And then first of all, I've been around so long, I remember MySpace and how that was the end all, be all and then boom gone. And so I didn't even get on. I use the thing I call double edge technology. I don't get on anything that's brand new because it's got the most bugs, it's the most expensive and hard to tell if it's going to be around. So I didn't even get on Facebook til they had a billion users. So wow. Yeah, because I've been through it. I've seen them people come and go and all these things. So and I could see it coming in the beginning of Facebook. They encourage you get people to like your page, like your page, like your page. Now unless you pay less than 1%, average of people see your post, you know. So I never killed myself building up anything on social media. In fact, if you looked at me on social media, it's OC. He's passable, but nothing great. But I have over 100,000 email subscribers. It's been loads of money. So, so. But it's under my control. So anybody, anybody at my level is making their bulk of their money through email. That's just the way of the world. I mean, you all the social media is great, but I call it a necessary evil to get people the heck off of their onto your email list.

[00:25:45] So I totally agree.

[00:25:47] Yeah. So, so I can see why you made a good choice picking email for sure. Now, the only thing I would say is that telling a long story in email. Over the years, the trend has been the shorter emails driving them to a web page. Because the longer an email is, the more chance it can innocently get caught in a spam filter. And they're tightening those like crazy every day. So. So I don't tell any long stories. I usually try to use copywriting techniques to get them curious, to want to go to the Web page to read the whole story, which is under my control.

[00:26:21] So which which is one way to do that? Or you can basically divide and conquer and tell the story in parts which will also increase the curiosity of your reader to keep opening your emails. So that's another method that you can or another approach that you can choose to to work with. But either either or is, I guess a really a really good idea. Yeah.

[00:26:47] Well, yeah, we we've done e courses for years and years and years and that's what you're talking about is breaking it down into segments so that each one doesn't have to be so long and people anticipate the next one. So but I've always been the copywriting. Once you learn the techniques, it invades all your writing. Now, I want to ask you, are you familiar with the term advertorial and do you think that's sleazy?

[00:27:14] Hmm. It could be everything could be sleazy and it could be not sleazy. It really it's not the what, but the how.

[00:27:25] All right. Explain your what you feel advertorial is.

[00:27:31] Are we referring to the advertising tactics?

[00:27:36] Yeah, that looks like an advert. It looks like editorial, but it's really an advertisement. So it looks like an article, basically. And there's no hint that there's anything for sale right away.

[00:27:51] The borderline here in this case can be very, very. Very thin. Again, I think it really depends on the how. It also could be, you know, even the platform that this this appears on, if this platform is known to be sleazy right from the get go, then of course, if you're a constant reader, if you've been on this platform for years, then obviously you don't expect anything else. But if it's on a platform where, you know, you you trust this platform and all of a sudden something like that comes up without any disclaimers, without being transparent about this, that could be incredibly sleazy.

[00:28:37] So for, for instance, the guy that taught me this concept was Corey Rudel. He was the 31 year old grandfather of Internet marketing for small business. This is long ago. And and so I showed him a sales letter I had for my wake up video professional speaking system that's got over 1000 tips on how to be a high level professional speaker. And and he saw the Web page and he said, Tom, get that big picture off the top. He said, because of the nature of the Internet, somebody is going to see what looks to be an expensive product at the top of the page, he said. What are they going to do? They're going to scroll to the bottom to see the price before they've seen any of the benefits. So he said, write an advertorial. And when we did the split testing back in the day, the ad and this is 1000 between 1000 and 4500 depending on sales and stuff. The advertorial sold four times as many systems as the one with the picture on. So very powerful concept because that the idea is, is whether you think it's sleazy or not is that the people see the benefits before they see the price rather than they see the price. And they don't bother to look at the benefits.

[00:29:57] But see, I think there's a big difference here because when it comes to a sales page, I don't think there's anything sleazy with mentioning the benefits first, because obviously you want to highlight what's in it for the reader. And that's beautiful. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. The only thing that I see nowadays that kind of bothers me with sales pages, which I'm not specializing in. But just to point it out, is that the length of a sales page became so tedious and so long, and it's impossible to go through everything now. I bet that all the pieces of the information on those sales pages are necessary. But what I maybe would advise people to do is to give a better navigation system within the sales pages. If they're this long, if they're like 3000, 5000, 7000 word long, then I don't know, throw a button here and there to skip to the to the price and kind of cut the the crap and and get to it because some people or most people won't actually sit down and read the entire thing.

[00:31:24] Well, what what people typically do and this is I've always thought this is how you get rich is you split test. So instead of making a navigation button, you could have a long version, a short version, a video version, a video with text underneath various different versions, and then let the people decide which one they like the best. That's you can, as anybody that tells you they can predict, guard your wallet and run because you never know. I mean, so as long as I've been doing this, I cannot predict which for that particular promotion, for that particular price or that particular audience and product, what which sales letter will win. I get surprised all the time. And so so don't let anybody tell you that one way is the only way you got a test.

[00:32:14] Absolutely. And you know what, Tom? This is basically what ethical marketing is all about. There is no one way to do anything pretty much. And a B testing and split testing is, you know, within the email marketing room, which is my field. So I'm a huge advocate for split testing myself.

[00:32:34] Beautiful. Beautiful. All right. We got to take a brief sponsor break. And then when we come back, we're going to ask you all what's a typical day look like for her and her business? And does she have a morning routine and what time she get up and how she runs her business of doing ethical copywriting? Well, folks, about, say, about 25 years ago, it kind of turned the Internet marketing guru world on its head and that people at my level were charging 50 or 100 grand up front to teach what they knew to other small business people. And I knew a lot of these people talk about unethical GS. You'd give them that money they'd be hiding out in Israel, trying to find you never find them again. So I thought, you know, that's too risky for a small business to put out that kind of money. So I said, okay, I'm going to fix this. So I charged about a 10% of what they were charging as an entry fee to my program. And for me to get my 50,000, you have to net 200,000. Well, people really like this because they knew that I wouldn't disappear on them and it was a lot less risky for them. And so they kind of like this. And in 25 years later, it's still the program is still going strong and no lawsuits, nobody badmouthing me because they know I'm going to be here for them. So I call it the longest running, most successful, most unique program in the Internet and digital marketing ever.

[00:34:04] And I triple dog dare people to put a program up against mine because I'm a crazy fanatic. I was helping people on Memorial Day. I do evenings, weekends. It's all one on one with me and my entire staff. So you're not lumped in with people more advanced or less advanced. You have an immersion weekend at the retreat center here in Virginia Beach, where you spend a long weekend actually living in the retreat center with me. And we have a TV studio here where we shoot videos for you, edit them, send them to you. So nobody on earth gets that kind of stuff. So check it out at greatInternetmarketingtraining.com and give me a call. There's no high pressure here, no machine in deference to our guests, no Uzis here on you to force you to do anything. And once you are here at the retreat center, there's no upselling and none of that. We're here to give you value and make you a top online marketer.

[00:34:59] All right. Let's get back to the main event. We're here with Yuval Ackerman. She's an ethical email marketer, and I love her ideas and what she's all about. But you've all like, so how do you run your business? Do you have a morning routine when you get up? What do you eat? How do you how do you operate in a day?

[00:35:18] It's interesting because it took me a while, a good while, to get to my morning routine as it is nowadays, but I'm sticking to it. I think that's the most important thing. I do have a morning routine. It's quite long, but I need it. I absolutely need it before I can even start thinking. I wake up at around 8 a.m., something like that. Trying to get seven or 8 hours of sleep? Not always. There's so much content out there that I'm interested in, and I start with a cup of coffee and writing morning papers, which I'm not sure you probably have heard of that, right?

[00:35:58] Morning papers like. Well, some is a journaling or.

[00:36:03] Exactly. So the idea is to write three full pages, handwritten pages before you check any kind of messages and just kind of do a whole brain dump.

[00:36:17] Well, you know, that's interesting. You've all because the person on episode 601 the brain rewiring lady she has you do that but she has you do it with your opposite hand.

[00:36:29] Oh, my gosh.

[00:36:30] I know.

[00:36:30] That's next level.

[00:36:33] Go ahead.

[00:36:35] Yeah. And then I finished my morning papers. I finished my coffee. I scroll a little bit on my phone. It's it's terrible. I don't recommend, but I'm still human. And then I do a quick yoga session online and I take a shower and then my day starts at around 10 a.m.. So it's about 2 hours of prep work. But I think that keeps me really, really grounded and in a wake more than anything.

[00:37:07] What's the typical day look starting at ten for the business day.

[00:37:11] I would say that I work a couple of hours on on something. It changes pretty much every day. There are lots of things to do every day. And then at around noon, I make some I would call it brunch because it's fun. Why not? So I eat brunch every day and and then get back to work for a couple more hours.

[00:37:36] Now, when you're working, are you. Do you writing for people or teaching them or both?

[00:37:42] I do so many things. Tom It's it's kind of mind blowing to me as well, and it's only going to grow very soon. Gosh, I cannot believe. But, yeah, I, I do everything. I mostly do client work, but in the very near future, it's going to expand. Yeah, it's going to be really, really interesting.

[00:38:06] Beautiful. Well. Thanks so much for coming on. As I said, it's a topic dear to my heart, being ethical with people and open and transparent. I think we have a little bit of disagreement on stuff, but still it's neither one of us are getting any lawsuits or people yelling at us. I guess we're good shape. So. Thanks so much. Now, how do they get ahold of you?

[00:38:30] I think the best way. Well, I'm obviously biased, but the best way to get a hold of me is through my email list.

[00:38:36] Oh, no kidding.

[00:38:37] Yeah, you know. So, yeah, come see me. Come see what I preach, basically, and get weekly funny stories about bad copying the wild and also what you can do and inspirational stuff. Anyhow, you can join at AckermanCopywriting.com/Subscribe.

[00:39:10] Make sure you spell that right, folks. Don't put it over. Copy right here. It's w.

[00:39:17] Yeah, exactly. A completely different field the other way.

[00:39:24] And then they'll see what you were talking about, right?

[00:39:28] Exactly.

[00:39:29] And everything good? Perfect.

[00:39:30] Mm hmm. I'm also on LinkedIn. I'm also on Instagram at Akerman, copyrighting or with my name, Yuval Ackerman. You will find me everywhere.

[00:39:39] I've always y u v a l.

[00:39:43] Exactly.

[00:39:44] There we go. All right. Well, thanks so much.

[00:39:46] Thank you.

[00:39:47] All right. We'll catch you next time. Everybody be ethical out there or both. Yuval will come at you from across the pond, and I'll get you from this side. So don't do anything that's not ethical. All right. Catch all on the next episode. See you later.