114 – World’s Greatest Copywriting Coach: Tom interviews David Garfinkel

Episode 114 – David Garfinkel
[00:00:07] Welcome to Screw the Commute. The entrepreneurial podcast dedicated to getting you out of the car and into the money, with your host, lifelong entrepreneur and multimillionaire, Tom Antion.

[00:00:23] Hey everybody it's Tom here with episode 114 of screw the commute podcast we got David Garfinkel here and I don't know if he knows it or not but he's one of my idols in the copywriting world and and many of you have heard me say that this is the most important skill I've acquired in my 42 plus years of formal business and really since I was 10 years old or so. So we're going to hear from him in a minute. Last episode was 113 Yanik Silver now. He's a really really big thinker. And we talked about how important it was to put soul in your business and you know customers deal with companies that stand for something and you can't keep these younger employees if if your company doesn't stand for something. So make sure you go back later and listen to that episode. Now our youth program is in full swing. We're looking for young people and that's up to early 20s or so to feature on screw the commute podcast. So if you know anybody that's doing good entrepreneurial things as a young person have them get in touch with me at orders@antion.com and I'll tell them how they can apply to be featured on an episode on our special youth edition. Now our podcast app is now available in the iTunes store. You can go to screwthecommute.com/app and it does all kinds of cool stuff like if you're listening in the car and a phone call comes in you can take the phone call it will automatically pause the podcast and then as soon as you hang up it starts it back up again and all kinds of cool things you can save your favorite episodes and we have complete instructions on how to use it and how to download it at screwthecommute.com/app. Now are on the banned TV is in full swing we've got the public speaking channel on Roku TV and we have several other channels in development on brutal self-defense protection dogs elite and various internet marketing topics and will also be on Amazon Fire. Before too long too and you don't know about an on demand TV you can really watch stuff whenever you feel like it and binge watch I watched like 88 episodes of The Equalizer from the 80s then and so. So it's a new thing and you can put your own channels on now and that's what we were doing. And guess what we had 1200 people download and now everybody hates public speaking and they downloaded and installed my channel with no promotion on my part at all. And so this is really an open field for people that want to get get their stuff on TV and reach a whole new market of folks. Now our sponsor is today is the distance learning school the internet marketing Training Center of Virginia. That's IMTCVA.org and what I want you to do is watch the webinar on higher education. And and it's going to bug your eyes out on some of the bad things happening in higher education and you are paying for it. I mean I'm not sure I'd want to mortgage my house to pay for students that are doing eight hours a week total including prep for class and going to class. This is crazy I mean I don't want to see you blowing lots of money on that stuff. So watch the Higher Education webinar you can see at screwthecommute.com/webinars.

[00:03:59] All right. Let's get to the main event David Garfinkel is a best selling author of breakthrough copywriting and he's known as the world's greatest copywriting coach. Now before he escaped the clutches of corporate life he was McGraw-Hill World News' San Francisco bureau chief. And today he helps people like you write ads that bring sales to your business. DAVID Are you ready to screw. The commute.

[00:04:30] I'm ready to screw the commute. All right. Yes sure why not.

[00:04:37] You've been screwing it for a while now. So tell us so what you're what you do and how you help people now and then we're going to take you back through your the corporate stuff and how your jobs ahead and how you got out of that mess. So tell us what you're doing now with people.

[00:04:53] I will. And before I do I got to tell you I I love something you sent me that yourself for something else we're doing where you say you help people stop driving to a job in order to make money for other people. I mean seems like that's getting screwed in the opposite direction.

[00:05:11] That's right. Yeah. Yeah. You know when people look at my resume it's what it looks like B.S. to them. But I say hey if you're not stuck in the car all day long every day you know you can live two or three extra lives. Yeah. Oh oh it's true. And where you live too the traffic's no fun out there, is it?

[00:05:28] Ever since the earthquake in 89 in San Francisco it's gotten bad it's I mean it's still a walk in the park compared to L.A. but. Yeah right. Right. Yeah.

[00:05:40] So to answer your question I help people write better ads and get more money for their businesses I mentor business owners and successful already successful professional copywriters and I do copy critiques for people of their sales letters video scripts and their webinar scripts.

[00:05:59] Yeah. And you've been doing this a long time. When did you get started in copy.

[00:06:07] I would say mid 90s so maybe about 25 years ago.

[00:06:12] You know what. What started that for you. What made you get into that.

[00:06:17] You know I left the McGraw-Hill job in 1985 and I wanted to make it as a freelance writer and I did everything right a co-authored a book. I was getting royalties on the book. Not much but. And I you know I I was starting to figure out. That Writing words in and of itself is not very valuable. But writing words that sell stuff is very valuable. And you know that was in combination with the fact that. I don't know I decided not to pay taxes for a few years as an experiment and you know that never ends well in America. So I was I was really at a low point in my life. I was technically bankrupt I never filed which maybe I should have but I paid everything off.

[00:07:17] But I really appreciate that because I was in the same boat one time and I refused to go bankrupt. I went to all the creditors and I said look you know me you give me time and I paid everybody off so that's I really love to hear that.

[00:07:32] Yeah but the IRS boy they play hardball. Yeah that's tough. And anyway I I somehow weaseled my way out of it and I realize this doesn't it. So I I just happened to get a letter from Gary halbert you know great famous.

[00:07:54] I mean might not recognize that but we do know they use one of the best of the best.

[00:07:59] Yeah. And it was from my business partner a friend had sent it to him and he looked at it and he looked at it upside down and tried to read it backwards. It just didn't make any sense to him. I looked at and I said What in the world is this guy doing. And I read over and over again and then as fate would have it a tragedy occurred in South Florida. Hurricane Andrew which was you know is like Katrina it was like I mean it was just awful. I was not I was in St. Louis. Gary was. He was and so he offered to do a seminar for free which was very appealing to me not having any money or credit cards at the time. And at the end you would write a check not to him but to the Red Cross of South Florida. And and so I managed to scrape together some money and a buddy and I went. We shared a room and you know did everything on the cheap. And I did write a check it wasn't for a whole lot but it was about it was a lot for me at the time. And you know I met so many people there who have influenced my career. Some of them are still friends to this day. Good friends Jon Karlton and David Deutsch was there. I met bond. He was three years old. Gary's son and I really don't know how old he was but he wasn't that old then. And. Met Gary himself. Ted Nicholas was a major influence. I met Dan Kennedy ended up doing some critiques for his company for a while because you know Dan's too busy to actually do critiques.

[00:09:45] You can hit him at 2 o'clock on Wednesdays on his fax machine.

[00:09:50] Oh yeah. Exactly. Now. Now I'm sure he does critiques for other clients. This was for part of the inner circle. But anyway. Yeah. So I meant I mean a lot. I mean that was like you know the term inflection point where something happens that you know everything goes that the end. And then I worked my butt off. I did everything I could to write copy for as many people as I could. I think I've clocked in over 100 industries but a funny thing happened. People kept asking me to write books and teach them. I didn't say I could write a book machine. OK. Like Jay Conrad Levison met me in like 30 seconds. Would you like to write gorilla direct mail with me. And you know it's funny we never wrote that book. We collaborated on three other books. I made some friends thinking about this Tom. Both of these things happened in Marin County and that's where you and I did a seminar. I don't know if you remember that the Holiday Inn.

[00:10:48] I was gonna ask you a long time ago how we even met I can't remember.

[00:10:53] I don't know you know these things sort of happened anyway. I was in the screenwriting class because I was still looking around for you know what was going to be my lottery ticket out of even you know being comfortable to being like you know frighteningly rich. And so a couple of the women in the class said David you keep talking about copywriting and comparing it to screenwriting and you know I'm a published novelist and she's a newspaper reporter and you have a nice new car and you seem very happy. Would you teach us how to do that. And so. These are two examples. It happened over and over again and I realized you know I I love to give people advice whether they want to hear it or not. So I might as well make a living off of it. And yeah I kept writing copy but I started coaching people in copywriting and you know one thing led to another. That's sort of how it happened.

[00:11:57] It's been a good career for you. All this all this time. Yes. So what. What are some things you would tell a business person that of the importance of this first and then we'll get into some maybe some nuts and bolts of what they should start doing. The importance to me is like the number one thing because you can have the greatest product in the world and hear crickets chirping if you can't convey in all the different fashions that we have now to convey it to to get people to buy.

[00:12:28] Ok so that's right. Most people who have jobs and are thinking of starting their own business don't understand something really important about the job. So let's let's take a really exciting job like a staple company not Staples the store. But if you sells staples at Staples and let's say that you're a marketing manager for the staple company what you don't realize is there's a whole. To at least and probably more but at least two teams of people besides you one that actually makes the staples and puts them into little packages that go into stores like Staples and Office Depot and Amazon and all that. And then there's another group of people that. Get the buyers at those stores to buy this stuff. So there's a production company a company that creates the stuff the product the service or whatever and then there's a second part of a large business that's called marketing and sales and there's a long detailed conversation but just basically concept. One part of the company does the work the other part of the company gets other people to give the company money for that work. Whether that work is a service or product an info product whatever. And so when you have your own business guess what the laws of nature don't get changed for you. Not only do you have to do the work you have to get other people to pay you for the work. And at first it's kind of easy because you go to people you know and you get referrals and then you run out of those people. Oh what you gonna do. You're going to market. And so marketing usually is getting people familiar with you branding getting them to know your name. But you know as I like to say I could recite some of the Geico commercials on TV to you by memory but my car insurance is with State Farm. Why is that. I'm very familiar. I'm much more familiar with the name of GEICO than state farm. You know I only think of anyone paying my premiums or God forbid there's a problem on the road but fortunately since I don't have to commute the chances of that problem happening or much less so marketing generally most people who don't take the direct marketing point of view that I take and I believe you take to Tom is getting the name known and then sales those are those untrustworthy sleazy slippery guys called sales people who actually feed your family. If you work for a company you're the ones who get the money. OK. Now the neat thing about direct marketing is we say well why do marketing and sales have to be two different things. They could be the same thing. We'll just write a message that gets people to buy from us. Now that may seem like D'uh to most people but when you really start to get into it you'll find out that there are a lot of people who will jump up and down do somersaults about branding but when it comes to getting the sales they say oh well you know. And they won't answer the question. So copywriting is the way you implement Direct Marketing you. And until this happens in your life you can't believe it. But you can write a message that will put money in your PayPal account or your bank or get you a huge cheque or your merchant account just sometimes with one message one webinar one sales page even one email that goes right to an order form. That's what that's all about.

[00:16:39] Yeah. And I've been ragging against branding for a long time. I mean most people brand themselves right into the poorhouse. They worry about oh I have to make sure my my my website colors match my brochure which never happens because of monitors but They try and they've got to have the perfect business card and the graphics and they go to professional firm and spend thousands on all this getting all this stuff together and they haven't made one sale. And then when they do make some sales the customer says well that's not really who you are you're this and they're like Oh man. So they've branded themselves incorrectly. I say your customer will brand you. So but you've got to concentrate on the sale first to get money coming in or none of this other stuff matters.

[00:17:28] So branding isn't total B.S. It's just B.S. for entrepreneurs and smaller companies. Let's say you are Coke and There's Pepsi and there's the Safeway house brand of cola. If you have Safeway or Kroger or the Piggly Wiggly or whatever it is wherever you live. And then maybe there is RC Cola. And so a customer comes into the store and we need some soda there in the Midwest we need some pop and they're looking at these things and there might have been a commercial which made them think Pepsi is better than Coke or RC is you know there might be a brand at that point for someone in the store for these giant Corporations. But but then you know sometimes you can't generalize a business principle to a situation that's entirely different. I mean as an entrepreneur you know whether you're a speaker or an info marketer or you have an Amazon store you have a you know or maybe you sell staples you know but you're a small staple maker whatever it is you know it's not the same. You're you're not in grocery stores. You don't have consumers looking between you and three other brands. It's a totally different context. So but unfortunately the for I'd say businesses the people who do branding have generalized their idea maybe. I mean this is just like a theory to compensate for the fact that they're too chicken to ask for the sale. I don't know.

[00:19:16] So where should people start because you know there's so many different types of copy you've got video scripts you've got short super short copy for ads like Google ads and you've got long form copy and you've got hybrids where there's a video and copy beneath it. Where would you have somebody start.

[00:19:36] Ok. Well I mean I don't mean to make fun of you because I know you're you're asking more for the people who are listening then for yourself right. But it's sort of like saying well you know there's there's eggs Rockefeller and there's some scrambled eggs and there's omelets and there's easy sunny side up and easy up. I mean basically you want to start with the fundamentals because they all apply. And so there are fundamentals of copywriting of direct response marketing. And it's a bit of a transformational journey and I'm not speaking in an exaggerated way because not only is the psychology the opposite of what they teach you in school if you went to school and studied psychology. It's also the opposite of most of what you think is advertising and sales. It it really is. It goes very deep and it's somewhat contrarian but it's available it's not hidden it's that there's no conspiracy and. Cloaking you can find it. It's out there. There are books and podcasts and facebook groups. Lot of stuff's free but it is going to take some work and some willingness to understand that the way the world works is not necessarily especially the world of small businesses. Getting customers to pay them money is different from what. you might have been told or you might have thought.

[00:21:19] All right well let's get into some some of the tips that like if somebody came to you for help. How would you interview them to see where to start them. Because you know people have all different types of businesses and like that we have so many outlets for copy now. So what would it look like if I came to you and said hey I need help with copy. What would you how would you start interviewing me to find out what I really needed.

[00:21:46] Well I I don't mean to be rude but I'd probably send you somewhere else you know. I mean if I met you and I'll tell you why. Most of my work is coaching people who are a little further down the road in terms of learning because I've found I'm not super effective starting with beginners but I know who is and I used to do that I just wasn't getting very good results.

[00:22:10] Let's jump it up. Let's say I've got an intermediate sized business I've got a bunch of copy out. And I don't feel like it's performing like it should. Then what would you do.

[00:22:24] Ok I can answer that a lot better. What I would do first of all is. Get most business owners rightfully so are very inward looking they think about their own business their own brand their own you know goals and desires. I would first thing I would do is try to gather information outside of that. I would try and find out OK. Number one as I would say everything needs to be focused on your customer and the people you want to become customers.

[00:23:04] Any of it on your competitors.

[00:23:08] I would focus on the competitors only from the point of view of the customers. In other words I would say Okay so let's make this a real simple. You have business a and competitors or business B C and D. I would say What are your best customers think about business B C and D and particularly what annoys them about them. What do they think they do wrong. What do they think they do bad. What do they find frustrating what do they find inconvenient. And I would either do this or hire someone myself to do this or ask them to do some research to really find out. And then I would say OK what is it about your business. That does the opposite of what most customers think. Top of mind is wrong with the other businesses. I'll give you an example that I used. I would say it was about 12 years ago that the market has changed but at the time I was in front of a room. Some pretty successful people and you know one thing people like to do and I'm no exception when they get successful is get a nice car so everyone in the world will know when they drive down the street. Oh here comes a successful person right. And I said OK so how many of you have you know luxury or expensive high end cars and there are a bunch of people. Course they always sit in the back of the room right up the back of the room. And they they raise their hands and they look sort of smug and I said OK how many of you this group that just raised their hands have contracts on your lease or on your you know payments or on your warranty if you paid cash for it. Where in order to keep that warranty intact you have to pay several thousand additional dollars every year in order to keep the warranty valid of of authorized maintenance. And their hands went up but their faces got really dark. They looked sort of angry and I said OK so this is interesting. I've seen a commercial over the last few weeks for BMW and I'm not sure BMW makes better cars. I'm not sure even they would say well they probably would say that but I'm not sure that your average you know auto expert impartially would say that. But there they do have some real great strengths. They have an entire building of people designed doors and they have all kinds of interesting qualities to their cars. But what they say in the commercial is once you buy a car from us you never pay a penny for four years for maintenance except for windshield wipers and tires. Everything else we cover and they at that point they were more of a niche luxury brand. Now they have become a I would say worldwide high end general consumer brand. They mean you see that might not even have been what the CEO thought was the best thing about the company. Not to mention all the engineers and all the car experts. But this was a point of difference in the consumer mind that put some salve on a very painful wound that other people out that their competitors were causing. And so if you can do the same thing with your business. You know I mean. If you can assert an advantage that's not only unique but is important to your customers because it solves a problem that they have in their general idea of your industry and specifically with your competitors then your copy is going to start working just by doing that.

[00:27:21] Boy folks I hope you realize the brilliance of that example that you just made because who does that. Hardly anybody does that. You know they're just scrambling to get their product done and make some sales and and that takes time and thought. But that is like sharpening the ax kind of thing. I mean you take that time and thought and the payback can be just enormous. And I have a BMW joke. All right so what's the difference between a BMW and a porcupine.

[00:27:54] I know the answer know that with BMW the prick is on the inside right. Thanks a lot. I now own one. Now I know what you think of me. Thanks Tom.

[00:28:10] So yeah that is really brilliant. And so. So you could do that by survey and your customers and talking to them. And. Yeah. But just that alone would mean even without any real skill and copywriting. Just bring it up. Those kind of points. I mean there wasn't any big copy about that other than hey we're not going to do what they do you're not going to have any extra fees. Boom done.

[00:28:35] Yeah I mean one thing about the best copy. And I I think I get to see it. I mean I'm gonna call every week with a Gore Financial which is like the 800 pound gorilla in the industry and I'm a consultant to those guys. And on the call they don't just bring in their own stuff. They will will often go over a sales letter. Often the best copy is basically a conversation. It's very conversational but it's finely tuned and focused and curated. You know what I mean by curated it. It's. It has tight. It's it's it's almost tunnel vision in terms of the customers. I mean their whole business. And they admit this openly. So it's not a secret is their whole business which is in the nine figures is based on a large group of People's dissatisfactions with stockbrokers Wall Street financial planners etc. And it's for people who want to make their own investment decisions with their money and they would like just to do it based on getting information and coming to their own conclusions and they're able to sell tons and tons of newsletters and in advice services after people buy the newsletters. Now that's just one example but you see it's really the same thing but the copy. It's yeah it's very smooth but it's it's what most people think of copy is is very flashy almost like clanging noisy sexy stuff and sometimes in some markets that works. But for a lot of people it doesn't do it. It puts up a red flag uh oh salesman approaching got to put up my defenses you know sentries at attention. Bring out your spears. You know it doesn't always work well to be really noisy and aggressive.

[00:30:51] Corey Rudl taught me back in 1996 the concept of advertorial and I showed him my sales letter and it had a big picture of this thousand dollar product on it. And he says get that the heck off of the page. It says The first thing people are going to do is scroll down and look at the price before they've seen any of the benefits. So he had me do an advertorial for the same product and it sold four times as much with never even a picture on the page of what the product was. And it was all conversational about the benefits of being a pro speaker and I'm just it was like an article look more like an article than the sales letter and it sold four times as many thousand dollar systems as the one with the picture.

[00:31:36] I mean that that's not surprising. Because you know people people don't I mean people don't think they want to be sold but they definitely want information about stuff and if you can give them information and point out something they want and then tell them how they can get it in a way that they feel comfortable with and that's what copy is about.

[00:31:59] Tell me about your book and then tell them about if they want to work with you what how that process works and where they go.

[00:32:06] Sure. So my book is called Breakthrough copywriting. It's available on Amazon as a Kindle and as a paperback. And if someone's interested in working with me I do three things a mentor business owners a mentor pro copywriters and I do individual one off critiques and I'll just say without mentioning the price it's expensive. So it needs to be high stakes and high leverage. But you know you just gave a perfect example that time you've got four times the sales from the same copy because of some expert advice.

[00:32:42] Yeah. And this was 1996 I took a consultation. He was charging twelve hundred and thirty dollars for Thirty minutes in 1996. And yeah that 30 minute. That one page alone just one page not a whole website just that one page is brought in over a million dollars.

[00:33:01] Yes. So that's that's pretty good leverage. That's almost a thousand to one. So people can go to Garfinkelcoaching.com and that's a website it talks how about my services and has one page that describes each one.

[00:33:23] Yeah. We'll have that the show notes so so they don't have to worry about figuring it out they can just go click on the show notes and go over and see those and then Amazon the book was breakthrough copywriting.

[00:33:36] Ok. Now we have to take a brief break for our sponsor. When we come back we'll ask David what's a typical day look like for him and how he stays motivated in his business. So folks check out my school at IMTCVA.org and learn how you can have a lifestyle business in as little as six months. Well let me ask you Do you know what colleges and universities are doing. Well according to gradeinflation.com they're raising grade point averages to make it look like they're doing a better job of teaching when there's a mountain of evidence that they aren't. I mean they followed 2000 kids from college and universities across the board. And after four years of college 45 percent of them said they didn't really learn any usable information. Now I don't know about you but I don't think I'd like to mortgage my house to pay for that kind of stuff. They did get lots of partying and social skills at the point and getting paid to protest. I'm not sure I'd want that. So watch the eye opening higher education webinar at screwthecommute.com/webinars and potentially save yourself and possibly your loved ones your friends and neighbors hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt when they go for higher education. We'll have that in the show notes. So let's get back to our super duper what's said. How were you termed the greatest copywriting coach in the universe something like that.

[00:35:04] Oh no I don't think so. I'm just this world and on Venus it would be a her.

[00:35:11] Yes. So what's a typical day look like for you.

[00:35:15] A typical day. Well I get up in the morning same thing for breakfast just so every mouth can be fed. No I actually I'm single so there's only one mouth to feed. But I do get up about the same time and I do have the same early breakfast now. Seven o'clock. I mean that might be early for a lot of people but I don't think so. And. The days vary. It starts at 7:00 and takes me a while to wake up. So I get up at five thirty on that day because it starts at 10:00 in Baltimore but from there the day varies. I often have a coaching call or two. I'm often working on my podcast and recording it. We actually do two recordings every other Thursday. I do promo videos for the podcast. I might be finishing a new song to work on with my producer and I'm a very late bloomer singer songwriter. I meet with him every Thursday. You know speaking of the copywriters podcast Tom I've heard you're going to be on the copy writers podcast.

[00:36:40] That's right. I am thrilled about that too. I'm going to talk about oral copywriting which is basically speaking from the stage and I mean I haven't really been beaten that I know of in 16 years in back of the room sales but I say that. But I also want to also say no charge backs and no complaints. No People suing me stuff. Then you have people that can sell a million dollars but then they've got it. They don't come through and take care of people and then that's what all the scams about. You know so.

[00:37:17] So you know I would say how much can you sell. It's not how much he can sell it how much you can keep.

[00:37:23] Right. Exactly. No. Like I said I sleep at night though so I'm going to go into a lot of the details of the things that I do which they're in a lot of it is not even. I mean My goal is to make them love me before I even get in the state I'm speaking or the country even. So it's not all just from the stage but it's aural copy all the way through. So we'll be talking about that on.

[00:37:48] Oh yeah. I'm I'm. I'm excited about that. And then I I didn't want to mention there's one other thing I do every day. Several hours of watching cable news. I call it my own personal executive time. I do this so I can be sure I have something to complain about every single day.

[00:38:05] So do you stick with one channel because I was somebody yesterday who was telling me that they they do three or four different channels just even if they hate the one channel just do that.

[00:38:15] Yeah. I watch the major three I watch Fox I watch CNN and I watch MSNBC.

[00:38:20] I watch all three. OK. And there there are certain hosts on Fox and MSNBC that make me want to barf. And so I just I would not watch them. But generally speaking I watch all of them.

[00:38:34] Yeah. It's just the same with a some of my just can't they just grate on me and no matter what they say. Yeah yeah. So. So boy this has been great catching up with you man. Like I said Neither one of us can remember how we met but it's been 25 years probably.

[00:38:52] Oh yeah. I mean I can't remember the year but I remember the hotel. I remember you. You were on some big tour and and you had injured yourself I think you were in a wheelchair or something.

[00:39:04] No I can remember. Yeah. Well I actually you know it's actually the hunting accident and last January and it would be such a great story had I got shot but guess what I fell on a log and perforated my intestines that day almost was that no man's land and they almost killed me at the hospital because they kind of blew it off so I go take an aspirin and I'm bleeding out. So. But I'm good now back in the saddle again. Well I think that's important if you lead an adventurous life. You know there are risks. Absolutely yeah. I mean I don't know how much hunting they do in Marin County.

[00:39:51] Well I think they hunt unicorns and so forth.

[00:39:56] So anyway great catching up with you everybody check the show notes for David's book and if you're if you've got a serious business and you want some serious results he's the bomb. He's the man. So thanks so much for coming on it.

[00:40:10] You're welcome. Thanks for inviting us. It's really good to catch up after all these years.

[00:40:14] My pleasure. So next episode I'm going to be on Monday as I do in-depth training sessions and on Wednesdays and Fridays I do interviews with great entrepreneurs like like David. And next see I think it's next Monday. I'm doing spam control and that's both for your e-mails. I know everybody pulls their hair out all the time on e-mails but you get your Web sites or are spam too and sometimes you don't even realize that. And then there's tens of thousands of spam comments loading up and things like that. We're going to tell you how to keep your Web sites clean and your e-mail clean. So we'll catch you all on the next episode.

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